Meetings of Membership Minds Chat Transcripts
The following highlights are from chat discussions during the Meeting of Membership Minds live online meetings:
August 17, 2021
12:49:34 From Pat White – ASNT : Something I hear being repeated is do you focus on the number of attendees or the engagement of those who attend? Quantity vs Quality
July 20, 2021
12:34:08 From Leigh Maltby : First conference back is where I picked up this bug 🙁
12:35:04 From Leigh Maltby : We’re seeing a huge uptick in new members and return of former members now that in-person events are happening again
12:37:31 From Leigh Maltby : All of our events got pushed to Q3/Q4 this year; so half year rate for membership is a steal for new members this year!
12:41:03 From Dan Ratner, TheBusinessofMembership.com : @Leigh yep, prorating membership dues is fully in play now
12:56:35 From Leigh Maltby : None of our members have been in the office, so couldn’t do snail mail this year. Usually do all three – phone, email, snail mail
June 15, 2021
12:58:35 From Marjie George : It was nice chatting with you all! I have to run to another meeting.
12:59:44 From Meagan Roloff : I have to hop to another meeting – thanks for ideas, everyone!
12:59:46 From Alex Shivak : Hi everyone Steve Shivak (Alex). I am out of the Cleveland, OH area now…definitely see a much smaller pool of association professional pool to pull from a full-time basis. POSITIVE: it enables me to look deeper at outside experts to help bring tried and true strategies to help make a quicker impact 🙂
13:00:25 From Kevin Whorton : This is why I find myself hiring bartenders and training them to become research assistants here in Vegas 🙂
May 18, 2021
12:41:17 From Dan Ratner, TheBusinessofMembership.com : I hope orgs are reviewing their certification policies related to points earned for in-person events only.
12:55:11 From Natalya Read : I love parade of homes!
12:59:10 From Renée @ HAVAN : Here’s the link for this Parade event:
12:59:14 From Renée @ HAVAN : https://havan.ca/parade-of-homes/
13:09:46 From Barbara Armentrout : sounds similar to Qiqochat but Qiqochat is NOT free.
13:10:35 From Renée @ HAVAN : wonder.me
April 20, 2021
12:40:20 From Dan Ratner, TheBusinessofMembership.com : Today, one lucky participant will have the chance to choose from this list of 5 books for membership professionals:
199 Ideas – Membership Recruitment and Retention
Membership Development: 101 Ways to Get and Keep Your Members by: Mark Levin, CAE
Millennium Membership: How to Attract and Keep Members in the New Marketplace by: Mark Levin, CAE
Retention Point: The Single Biggest Secret to Membership and Subscription Growth by: Robert Skrob
The ROI of Membership: Today’s Missing Link for Explosive Growth by Ed Rigsbee, CAE
The Membership Economy: Find Your Superusers, Master the Forever Transaction, and Build Recurring Revenue by Robbie Kellman Baxter
12:41:27 From Dan Ratner, TheBusinessofMembership.com : To be entered into the drawing, please send a private chat message to me with your full name, email address, and organization name. Just use the drop-down menu on the chat window to find my name and send me the message.
I’ll use that list to have a randomized drawing and the winner can choose one of the 5 publications for their library. Good luck!!
12:50:41 From Scott Oser : With @Jamie’s permission I want to share that she is currently looking for her next senior level association position. Her last position was in the membership arena but she is also looking upward for ED/CEO positions. If you know of anything please let her know.
12:52:13 From Barbara Armentrout : @Scott, thanks and remind folks she’ll be an amazing addition to lead a team.
12:52:50 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE : Thanks @Barb! I knew I showed up at this meeting for a reason 🙂
12:57:23 From Dan, TheBusinessofMembership.com : To be entered into the book drawing, please send a private chat message to me with your full name, email address, and organization name if you haven’t already. Just use the drop-down menu on the chat window to find my name and send me the message.
12:59:24 From Michele Santiago : Thank you all for sharing your collective wisdom. I’m not currently working but really enjoy hearing your insights on what’s going on. I have another meeting so I need to leave. Thank you.
12:59:55 From Scott Oser : Thanks for coming @Michele. Next time please share what you are looking for. This group is always happy to help.
13:01:06 From Carol Spencer : I’ve enjoyed this meeting but need to leave for an appointment. Thank you!
13:04:53 From Nicole Mitchell to Dan, TheBusinessofMembership.com(Direct Message) : Nicole Mitchell- American Pet Products Association, nmitchell@americanpetproducts.org. Thank you, this was great!
13:06:35 From Barbara Armentrout : Lots of great discussion once again but I gotta pop off. See you all again soon!
March 16, 2021
12:38:37 From Barbara Armentrout : Tony, can the assn capture the home address in the database for more than one-time use or limited to one-time?
12:39:10 From Barbara Armentrout : meaning when you got it from append
12:40:56 From Patricia White : We (ASNT) have found that many members still have not returned to their offices. The retention for individual members has stayed close to normal. The organizational memberships have nose-dived. So we will be starting to mail those invoices out.
12:43:01 From Andrea Holovach : I feel like we were so quick to respond to creating virtual events, we did it in a non-integrated system that makes it near impossible to launch a recruitment campaign.
12:43:50 From Dan Ratner : interesting Andrea. can you do a follow up with the reg. list?
12:44:16 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE : In my last position, we went head strong into virtual programming that was “open” as well which produced a slew of new prospects. 2021 is a great opportunity to go after that list.
12:44:24 From Andrea Holovach : @Dan – we do a follow-up, but it takes a while to dedupe the reg list against the member database
12:45:00 From Dan Ratner : ah. would certainly be more efficient the other way Andrea
12:45:04 From Andrea Holovach : So true, Cheryl…all the virtual is free and promoted everywhere, so why be a member?
12:45:18 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE : @Cheryl – definitely! How are you articulating it? Testimonials?
12:45:26 From Carolyn Hook : @Andrea Nice to see you. We are in the same position, I have a bunch of lists from events that need follow up.
12:46:26 From Peter Magnuson, AIUM : One challenge we have is that we have moved to a fee structure (after making a lot of stuff free at the beginning of the pandemic), but many competitors are still offering materials for free.
12:49:29 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE : I agree with all that is being said on recruitment. But it isn’t enough – you also need a good engagement strategy in place.
12:50:13 From Cheryl Rothbart : We have free 1 hour webinars, but are charging for our 2-3 day conventions. We are doing some testimonials and I have to say that as we go on we get more participation. I have promoted the fact that we have been able to have speakers that we could not afford at an on0site meeting as well as more people join us from around the world.
12:50:16 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE : Additionally, @Dan, I think that an association needs to build itself to not just be the place you go for help, but your members’ professional home.
12:52:13 From Monica Williams : I have started working with a scientific organization that has been using “Free membership” for acquisition. With very little too offer for benefits, conversions are a problem!
12:52:28 From Darryl Walter : My renewal email open rates have taken a hit since October. Is anyone else seeing this?
12:52:36 From Carolyn Hook : My org has a tradition of doing things for free for “the good of the profession.” I’ve been here two years and want to build a stronger member value proposition but I’m pushing up against “it should be free.”
12:53:49 From Monica Williams : We had some issues with postal delivery of our invoices in November.
12:53:50 From Patricia White : @Darryl our open rates are high for the first email and lower significantly with each subsequent email.
12:54:28 From Andrea Holovach : For us, the association waited so long to innovate for the next generation, all 2020 did was put a spotlight on an issue we already had. But also fuels my ability to put focus to it.
12:55:35 From Cindy Simpson, CAE : @Darryl our situation is the same as Patricia’s. We also had good results with our initial mailing of invoices but did experience problems with the USPS . Subsequent emails and mailing of invoices saw lower results.
12:57:01 From Patricia White : Sorry – have to jump into another meeting. @Tony I look forward to reading the book 🙂
12:57:48 From Darryl Walter : We are doing well with postal renewals but mail delivery is slow. I mailed a BRE two weeks ago, it took six days for a BRE to go from Bethesda to Silver Spring (six miles in six days).
12:58:26 From Carolyn Hook : Yes, we’ve made lots of great changes for our upcoming conference. As we talk about next year, I’m already hearing “let’s go back to the old format.” Hoping the innovations will get great feedback so we don’t “go back!”
12:59:51 From Peter Magnuson, AIUM : Same–we had record attendance at a recent event, but it didn’t translate directly into membership.
12:59:52 From Sondra : @Darryl, write Post Master General DeJoy and copy your elected officials providing your experience and how it effects your livelihood.
13:00:12 From Cindy Simpson, CAE : Same here – education brings in significantly more revenuew than membership.
13:00:21 From Lynn Zalokar : I have to hop on another call. Good discussion. Thank you Dan and Tony.
13:00:48 From Peter Magnuson, AIUM : Thanks all–have to jump to another call. Another good conversation!
13:00:51 From Andrea Holovach : I have to hop too. So great to see these faces! I will be back!
13:01:30 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE : I have a 1:00 – thanks for pulling this together, Dan. Great job on the book, Tony. I’m really enjoying the read!
13:01:58 From Scott Oser : @Tony where can those who haven’t gotten the book get the book?
13:04:47 From Carolyn Hook : Tony’s book
13:06:27 From Carolyn Hook : We raised our dues. Anyone else?
13:06:31 From Barbara Armentrout : Such a fun conversation, great to see everyone, but gotta pop off. See you again soon.
13:07:48 From Michele Santiago : Very informative. Thank you all!
13:08:18 From Sondra : Late for my next appointment. Thanks for the chat.
13:12:04 From Darryl Walter : Thank you, good discussion!
13:12:19 From Sara Miller : Thank you! Congrats Tony!
13:12:22 From Carolyn Hook : Thanks all!
13:12:23 From Cindy Simpson, CAE : Great time – thanks!
February 16, 2021
12:34:05 From David Falchek to Everyone : David Falchek, American Wine Society, out of PA
12:34:37 From OMPA account to Everyone : Lisa Cicala, Oregon Media Production Association (www.ompa.org)
12:34:51 From Barbara Armentrout to Everyone : Barb in Boca: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-j-armentrout-cae-3058a24/
12:34:55 From Monica Williams to Everyone : Monica Williams, Association for Psychological Science
12:35:14 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE to Everyone : Hey – I’m Jamie Beaulieu from the DC area. I’m currently in transition, and was most previously heading up membership and professional development with the Society for Neuroscience.
12:35:16 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE to Everyone : https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiebeaulieu/
12:35:27 From Tracy Vann to Everyone : Hi Tracy Vann, American Case Management Association – trying to multitask and attend two meetings at the same time but looking forward to listening to the conversation!
12:35:31 From Peter Magnuson to Everyone : Pete Magnuson, American Institute of Ultrasound in Medicine
12:35:32 From Cheryl Rothbart to Everyone : Hi, Cheryl Rothbart from the International Propeller Club. We said, we don’t fly!
12:35:46 From Lynn Zalokar to Everyone : I’m an association management professional (membership marketing and administration, mentoring programs, meetings/events) in Fort Lee, NJ. I’m happy to connect on LinkedIn and be of help if possible: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnzalokar/
12:36:22 From Cheryl Rothbart to Everyone : Trying to engage our international members with our US members, especially doing things virtually has been a challenge.
12:36:23 From Sharon Ruckdeschel to Everyone : Sharon Ruckdeschel from the American Medical Writers Association in MD
12:36:27 From Lisa Samuels to Everyone : Lisa Samuels, Tax Executives Institute. I just took over membership responsibilities after 3 years of poor oversight. Talk about a mess to clean up!
12:37:43 From David Falchek to Everyone : We are an IMO, with about 15 % people in, or marginally connected to, the industry. We are looking at Corporate level membership.
12:41:19 From Peter Magnuson to Everyone : I think we all have Frankenpositions!!
12:43:58 From Peter Magnuson to Everyone : Where you put time and energy, you see results
12:50:59 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE to Everyone : Hear what they mean, not what they say 🙂
12:56:26 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE to Everyone : I like the mirror
12:59:29 From Lisa Samuels to Everyone : Need to jump to my next meeting – nice to meet everyone!
12:59:41 From Dan Ratner to Everyone : Thanks Lisa.
12:59:44 From Peter Magnuson to Everyone : Great conversation as always. I need to hop on another call. Cheers
12:59:53 From Kristine Metter to Everyone : I have to go to my next call. Great conversation today! thanks for hosting this, Dan.
13:00:07 From Dan Ratner to Everyone : Thanks Kristine
13:00:51 From Barbara Armentrout to Everyone : Also have to hop to next meeting but this was great, so glad I finally joined this session. see you again soon.
13:01:50 From Jamie Beaulieu, CAE to Everyone : Great to see everyone! Need to get going. Thanks, Dan!
13:02:02 From Kevin Whorton to Everyone : Thx also for hosting us, Dan! Nice to see everyone
July 28, 2020
12:35:25 From Leigh Maltby : Has anyone done virtual booths, either as a participant/sponsor or as part of your conference?
12:35:49 From Peter Magnuson : We haven’t yet, but would be looking at it for our Annual in April
12:37:05 From Dan Ratner : Good question Leigh. We did a quick virtual event we hadn’t planned on earlier this month and we did get sponsors like we had at our big event in January. It worked well. It was a test balloon for our 2021 January event.
12:39:04 From Sharon Ruckdeschel : Since virtual conferences are more accessible than in-person, are people finding the number of their virtual conf are increasing over their in-person?
12:39:13 From Leigh Maltby : Yes!
12:39:22 From Leigh Maltby : We’re still free
12:39:34 From Dan Ratner : absolutely
12:39:43 From Dan Ratner : free for members and for fee for nonmembers
12:40:40 From Leigh Maltby : re: Sharon – We’ve seen an over 500% increase in our digital offerings
12:40:40 From Scott Oser : @Leigh I have had some success with virtual booths but it is not easy.
12:41:32 From Leigh Maltby : Thanks Scott and Dan
12:42:04 From Dan Ratner : we did charge for the recent event but it was a different type of event. more individualized private meetings between execs. the education sessions were low participation
12:42:31 From Sharon Ruckdeschel : We are charging for our virtual conf in October. but less than our in-person. $360-$399 for members. 3 days. No real incentive as far as gaining CE for a certification. Our leadership is expecting 1,000 people to attend (our normal in-person annual conf is about 800 people)
12:43:04 From nicole ratner : sharon have you opened reg yet and if so are you noticing any trend at the moment?
12:44:37 From nicole ratner : Leigh: in my past we did 2 annuals (fall and summer) and then did regionals 2-3 times a year. I believe they are still planning to do those and usually held in Jan and late April/May time frame but regionals tended to do better in general with the group I was with before.
12:46:51 From nicole ratner : I think meetings in the fall will be challenge in person given that most schools may be virtual as well and so I think parents will be thinking more about their travel as well and whether it’s absolutely necessary versus just a fun time to be there for.
12:48:25 From Sharon Ruckdeschel : Nicole – we have not opened reg yet. We will in mid-Aug. All registrants get access to all the content thru the end of the year.
13:00:20 From Renee-HAVAN : Unfortunately, I have to leave the meeting for a sales call. Nice to see everyone. Take care and be safe.
13:00:53 From Leigh Maltby : For those of us with associations who are not federated, do you have ambassador programs to help regionally? I’d love to connect with anyone who does, as we are starting ours
13:07:51 From Peter Magnuson : That’s a really good thought and reminder
13:09:12 From Peter Magnuson : We managed to stop that theft–at least for now 🙂
13:09:32 From Dan Ratner : that’s good to hear.
13:14:47 From Peter Magnuson : Hey all: Always a great discussion. Thanks, but I need to jump off.
13:14:53 From Leigh Maltby : Thanks all!
13:15:04 From Sharon Ruckdeschel : thanks everyone – nice to see you!
June 30, 2020
12:47:29 From Nicole Ratner, CAE, CMP : how was turnout of the members?
12:49:57 From Scott Oser : @amanda are you talking about TSAE?
12:50:06 From Jennifer Richards : just pulled the reg and it was 563
12:50:06 From amandafeil : YES
12:50:58 From Nicole Ratner, CAE, CMP : same here for us we’re scheduled for vasae in sept and it’s up in the air with no language in our contract for covid cancellations though they did say it will be dependent and could be online.
12:52:01 From Nicole Ratner, CAE, CMP : and wonder if members too won’t travel based on what occurs with schools.
13:03:08 From Jennifer Richards : https://membersuite.wistia.com/medias/oawc493obg
June 16, 2020
12:53:17 From Peter Magnuson : We are piloting 2 new hybrid offerings in September. New for us as well
12:53:32 From Leigh Maltby : When are you moving to hybrids? Are you already hosting them?
12:56:04 From Nicole Ratner, CAE, CMP : how many are asking members what they are comfortable with moving forward to gauge interest? and then whether or not you need to relook at value proposition to see if it’s aligned with new normal.
12:56:39 From AAAE Member Services : We are already hosting hybrids. it was a quick pivot and now our marketing department is deploying a new virtual meeting software where the bigger meetings can be better produced.
12:59:00 From Peter Magnuson : We are sensing Zoom fatigue from our members. It’s because all work AND personal stuff is online–no breaks
13:01:01 From Leigh Maltby : Kevin – can you share that Collaborate link or the name of the thread?
13:04:01 From Leigh Maltby : I’ll second Kevin’s point about the creativity – we have more than tripled our education offerings and are seeing amazing attendance growth (also more prospects).
13:05:10 From Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC : @Leigh that sounds like a great opportunity.
13:07:40 From Leigh Maltby : re: budgets – We’re getting concerned about renewals because memberships that were approved already, even invoices that were in the payment pipeline have been frozen.
13:08:46 From AAAE Member Services : we actually met our original budget in April and May for membership, but our new member rate has seriously slumped. I guess it says a lot about how our current renewing members feel about the value of our association.
13:16:54 From Nicole Ratner, CAE, CMP : traditional surveys aren’t helpful if you do it too much but one off ones with just a questions via Instagram or fb even work well for engagement.
June 2, 2020
12:36:20 From Jeanne Metzger : Is there a message you can use that can show you can save the company money to counter act the budget cut argument?
12:54:23 From Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC : @Jeanne, maybe a message something like, “pay now and we’ll take care of you through all of this mess.”
May 19, 2020
12:38:38 From nicole ratner : I think many are also taking time now with companies figuring out what their plans are such as going back to offices or how to open so they may be a little more distracted now.
12:51:52 From nicole ratner : more work seems to be happening..
12:53:39 From Ryan Zimmerman : I’m looking forward to the in person interactions again though. Membership is only going to grow if we can have those one on one interactions with our members and support them from a personal standpoint.
13:04:12 From Jeanne Metzger : Question: is there any data about what are realistic projections of expansion of audiences by offering virtual events?
13:04:40 From Scott Oser : @Jeanne not that I have seen.
May 5, 2020
12:39:53 From nicole ratner : Nikki I have noticed that many local pediatricians have started doing more on their social media accounts to have engagement so since it’s mothers day soon asking for photos of moms and their kids and doing drawing for gift card to a local small biz restaurant. so helping the local areas around them but keeping in touch with their current clients and possible future ones. they have not done this before in the past.
12:43:33 From Scott Oser : Never heard of “badger.” Need to check that out.
12:44:01 From nicole ratner : john have you seen an increase in sales for your members from the general public? wanting to buy from local farmers?
12:44:21 From John Torres : Huge increases in on farm and farm market sales right now!
12:45:54 From Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC : @Scott I thought the same thing. Need to look into Badger
12:46:14 From Patricia White : John, glad to hear someone is using Badgr – as an association we are working with using them shortly
2:46:32 From Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC : @Patricia so that’s how you spell it
12:46:41 From nicole ratner : john do you also use the badges on FB or social media platforms when they contribute?
12:46:58 From John Torres : It’s our first entry into digital badging. We are crossing our fingers that it is a quick and easy way to recognize our volunteers online.
12:48:00 From nicole ratner : critical to make sure you try to capture their home addresses!
12:48:42 From John Torres : We just launched our campaign on Monday. Our goal is to issue badges through Badger’s ability to connect to the major social media platforms including Facebook once volunteers hit specific levels of monetary or food donations. The challenge, of course, will be getting people to connect their social media accounts with Badger. We will see how willing and able volunteers can do that.
12:49:03 From Patricia White : @Nicole home addresses are the #1 data point missing as most of our members have all of their information sent to their work address.
12:49:22 From sabrina : NABL is going to have a live, virtual conference in June using Zoom. It will be a four-day event and members will get more CLE because of the new format.
12:50:01 From Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC : @sabrina will it be open to nonmembers?
12:50:54 From sabrina : @dan yes. It will be open to members and non-members. There’s a price difference, but they can definitely attend.
12:51:10 From Kelly Verberg : @sabrina, what are you charging for this virtual conference?
12:51:47 From Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC : @sabrina that’s good. may find some good prospects you don’t see or can’t take advantage at the in-person events
12:51:59 From nicole ratner : as for a conf I was planning to attend and the meeting side of our company for anyone that registered prior to the pandemic they will receive the same items they would have gotten minus ribbons and badges.
12:52:58 From Darryl Walter : We are moving our meeting to virtual and one of the things that we are doing is creating easter eggs that will provide additional content after they view an exhibitor message.
12:53:26 From sabrina : @Kelly $725 for member and $1375 for non-members. Since it was supposed to be in-person, we decided to include two resources to them instead of them having to pay. One was included and the other is a $200 value, which is included in the registration fee.
12:53:49 From nicole ratner : as for meetings I know many that have meetings in summer and technically can’t be cancelled for some states since governors haven’t extended dates beyond theirs however I think we all know having a meeting even for 200+ may not happen this summer and have seen many properties book future years out.
12:53:52 From Nikki Mendez : Re: renewals – I did read an article recently that one association is still sending out renewals, just much sooner than when they’re do. We’re annual, so we did get our dues but our ED said that we’re not going to increase the dues.
12:54:51 From Scott Oser : I have been looking into exhibitor/sponsor value a lot. We have discussed sending an actual reg bag to people with samples, etc like you would at a face to face event. I did see someone that offered a physical reg bag to the first 50 people that registered.
12:54:58 From amandafeil : We’re still sending paper renewal invoices, but we had a buck slip to acknowledge the situation. No grace period yet but it continues to come up in conversations.
12:56:01 From Allen Hepner : Like the idea of offering the physical reg bag to 1st 50 people.
12:58:09 From Allen Hepner : One thing to stress regardless of which channel you use, create a landing page and either request via email or direct mail to gather home address information. Mail is such a vital part of communicating in a digital world. It’s all about the data.
12:58:14 From John Torres : We are going to do a membership renewal promotion in which if people renew by a certain time they will receive 4 free branded cloth face masks. Limited supply.
12:59:01 From nicole ratner : john that’s great we all need them and it’s also a great way to partner too with a local person who can make them too.
12:59:15 From nicole ratner : i personally can’t wait to get back to farmers markets
13:00:01 From John Torres : Our farmers markets are open in Maryland. We are also providing guidance to our members who operate and who sell at farmers markets what they need to do to be safe and operate a market with best social distancing practices.
13:00:37 From nicole ratner : have to ask for what you want. ask for the home address. worse case they don’t give it to you but the ones who do when they get something will be happy and share it and then you’ll get more.
13:00:42 From John Torres : A lot of farmers markets are now leveraging online sales platforms to take orders that people can drive up in their cars to the farmers markets and get their order delivered pre-packaged.
13:00:54 From Allen Hepner : We are testing a “freemium” example
April 21, 2020
12:40:45 From Nicole Ratner : I’ve seen a lot of this locally where we are here Allen with small print shops helping to acknowledge birthdays and graduations and more.
12:42:45 From Scott Oser : @Allen makes a very good point. I think the key is to hyper target right now to get the lowest hanging fruit.
12:45:59 From Allen Hepner : Keep your marketing efforts and engagement with your members and prospects. I’d also recommend to send targeted messaging to capture more data (if possible) enabling you to connect with them during unusual times like these.
12:56:50 From spyles_ERC to Dan & Nicole Ratner The Next Steps, LLC(Privately) : Hi Dan, If time permits, is it appropriate to ask if anyone is adding any additional member benefits to their package (for the same, or a slightly higher, investment) to increase the help to members and value of the membership? Thank you! And, thanks for inviting us to this networking series! -Susan Pyles, ERC (NE Ohio)